Pre-Greek: The lost language hidden within Ancient Greek

(linguisticdiscovery.com)

36 points | by axiologist 3 hours ago

5 comments

  • kleton 56 minutes ago
    > because the Proto-Indo-European language arose in the landlocked steppes, it had no need for—and has no securely reconstructable word for—‘sea’.

    No, it is mori, attested in marine, muir, maryadah, mal, morje, etc in farflung IE tongues today.

    • TFNA 49 minutes ago
      There are decades of scholarship on those cognates, and a longstanding view that in Proto-Indo-European the word meant simply "large body of water" and not specifically "sea". Moreover, it may be a substrate word borrowed into European IE languages, as the affinity of that Sanskrit word to this cognate set is not very certain.
      • kleton 31 minutes ago
        It is probably not a substrate word, but more likely coming from "dead" water, as in not a moving river.
        • TFNA 27 minutes ago
          This is a well-established field where you can read experts discussing the word in depth, including its derivational properties and ablaut behavior. This isn't something where an HN's armchair guess is worth anything, just like when laypeople use HN threads on quantum theory for their own inane ideas.
      • medvidek 28 minutes ago
        You can see the same with the word "sea". Its German equivalent See still mainly means "lake", even though in some fixed expressions it can be translated as "sea" (e.g. Nordsee, Ostsee).
    • schoen 49 minutes ago
      Wiktionary's note says some people think this root may originally have referred to freshwater/inland seas, not oceans.

      https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-Eur...

      In many of the daughter languages it does regularly include saltwater connected to the world ocean (certainly the Latin "Mare Nostrum" for the Mediterranean!); it just seems uncertain from this description whether it necessarily had that sense in PIE.

      That doesn't seem like "had no ... word for ... 'sea'" is a very clear or helpful description of the situation, though.

  • TFNA 1 hour ago
    The title is super-clickbaity, as no Indo-Europeanist working today believes in a single Pre-Greek language; this was the idée fixe of the scholar Robert Beekes well over a decade ago now, and very flawed research as Beekes was succumbing to dementia then. In fact, within the field "Pre-Greek!" has become something of an inside joke.

    The article does eventually mention the current state-of-the-art, but only after perpetuating the misconception for some paragraphs, and that is poor form for a pop-sci article.

  • noncoml 1 hour ago
    > early Greeks, and especially the Mycenaeans (c. 1750–1050 BCE), are associated with major advances in technology (including writing)

    I’ve been doing a bit of reading on the Bronze Age Collapse recently. It was such an apocalyptic event that Greeks forgot how to write and read.

    Before the collapse, Greeks were using Linear A and Linear B. It took them a few hundred years after the Bronze Age Collapse to learn how to write again, this time borrowing the Phoenician alphabet.

    Imagine what an event would look like today that would take us back 200-400 years technologically.

    • dr_dshiv 3 minutes ago
      How long ago before the Myceneneans does there remain a coherent concept of Greek-ness?

      “Solon, oh Solon!” — are Greeks truly ancient or relative newcomers in a seafaring land?

    • atmosx 17 minutes ago
      [dead]
  • fr2029 1 hour ago
    [dead]