Third Editor Fired in Elsevier's Citation Cartel Crackdown

(chrisbrunet.com)

81 points | by RigbyTaro 2 hours ago

8 comments

  • shae 39 minutes ago
    After decades of dealing with Elsevier, Springer-Verlag and the rest; I hope they all go out of business.
  • blizdiddy 40 minutes ago
    Makes sense. Economics isn’t science, it’s numerology that justifies exploiting workers.
  • mlmonkey 21 minutes ago
    It will be interesting to see how Goodell's citations drop going forward.
  • amarcheschi 36 minutes ago
    It'd be nice to check whether some llms still have "memory" of the paper she has deleted
  • bpt3 37 minutes ago
    3 down, thousands to go.

    This will continue until Elsevier and their 3 or 4 peers are removed from the academic publishing process entirely.

  • ArbriT 28 minutes ago
    Is it just me or this makes me feel less guilty for using libgen all these years
    • munk-a 4 minutes ago
      Information for non-commercial purposes should be free for general social enrichment. Information for commercial purposes should have some path towards monetization but the one we've got right now is clearly a terrible fit.

      For the future, though, usually if you just email one of the paper author's with even a hint of interest you'll get the full paper and often a neat discussion about how your specific interest relates to the paper. I think people assume researchers get hounded by fans like celebrities but they're usually folks that love to talk about their topics of interest.

    • embedding-shape 8 minutes ago
      I don't know anyone who should be feeling guilty from using libgen in the first place.
  • ChrisMarshallNY 1 hour ago
    I am not arguing against the facts expressed in the piece. This is not an area in which I have any expertise.

    However, I am a bit uncomfortable with the pithy language used. It's possible (likely, even), that the fired editors deserve the pithiness, but it's still a bit weird to read that kind of prose, in a scientific context.

    • mklyachman 58 minutes ago
      This is an investigative substack, not a piece of academic literature. God forbid the author home some (admittedly, strong) opinions and speaks negatively about fraudsters.
    • ChrisMarshallNY 12 minutes ago
      Well...the reactions were ... enlightening

      I certainly apologize for hurting feelings. That was not my intent.

      I've just learned (the hard way, of course, because how else do we learn?), that using this kind of terminology, even though we may be feeling quite pithy, gives ammo to those that wish to discount us.

      This goes double, in my experience, for any context that prizes objectivity and articulate discussion.

    • JMKH42 1 hour ago
      I am amazed that every time evil is exposed there are people who have to jump in and wonder "Are we being a bit too mean to the evil though?"

      Makes me wonder if these people are just evil themselves.

      • mananaysiempre 59 minutes ago
        There are few things I’m afraid of more than a man that thinks himself righteous, because there is very little that such a man would be unwilling to do.

        So it makes sense to be cautious when I find myself feeling like one, or being pulled along by the emotions of another who does.

        • idle_zealot 43 minutes ago
          You're not wrong about the danger posed, but take a step back and consider who this attitude helps. The greatest beneficiaries of a culture in which good faith and civility are unconditionally granted for fear of misguided righteous anger is a paradise for fraudsters and bad faith actors. I think we're seeing that world now.
          • mattw2121 4 minutes ago
            Spot on. Leaders in my company love to tout the line "assume good faith". If you say anything that indicates someone else is not operating in good faith, you are deemed the bad actor. This allows bad actors to run absolutely rampant.
      • pessimizer 19 minutes ago
        I've decided that it's a weird reversed counterpart to "impostor syndrome" (when you secretly think you're not that good while trying your best to maintain a professional standard.)

        I think there's this sort of "moral impostor syndrome" where people who carefully work to present an image of themselves as good people are totally willing to participate in fraud or theft at any level - the only consideration is whether they will be caught, because they value the appearance of being good people (and of course, that appearance gives them more opportunities to commit fraud and theft safely.) If they want to do something and there's no way they'll be caught, they'll do it 100% of the time.

        This is the only way I can understand people who refer to fraud as a "mistake." They see other people caught in a fraud that they can imagine that they themselves might have done, because they also wouldn't have thought that they would have ever been caught. The "mistake" was evaluating the chances of the success of a fraud badly.

        The fact that they relate to these people also makes them want to give them a second chance, just as they would want to be able to recover their careers if any of their past (or future) frauds had become "mistakes."

        "There but for the grace of God go I."

        It's terrible. It incentivizes evil. The desperation to give people a second chance to expiate one's own secret sins by proxy creates a system where people only initially draw attention through frauds, then get caught, then get second chances. Meanwhile, people who didn't participate in fraud never get noticed. It's a perverse incentive that filters for trash. Do anything to get your name out there, then the fact that your name is out there gets you into the conversation.

        Meanwhile, somebody is scolding you for being upset about it: "You're just perfect I guess. Never made a mistake." Fraud is not a mistake. You do it on purpose.

      • ChrisMarshallNY 1 hour ago
        Yup. You got me. Pleased to meet you. Hope you guess my name.
        • pfdietz 9 minutes ago
          ChatGPT?
          • embedding-shape 6 minutes ago
            Unlikely, but wouldn't surprise me if ChatGPT sounds a bit like ChrisMarshallNY given the amount of comments they've made here over the years :)
          • ChrisMarshallNY 7 minutes ago
            Seriously? Try looking at the profile.
    • _will_ 41 minutes ago
      Maybe I'm just naive or dense, but I'm not seeing language I'd be concerned about in the article? Help me get calibrated, is there something in particular that bothers you? or just a general vibe?
  • anonaaksldraf 53 minutes ago
    This blog contains some extremely troubling language, identity targeting, and direct slurs. The credibility of the author is very low, at a first pass.

    The alleged Elsevier behavior may have occurred, of course, independent of the integrity of the source.

    • bpt3 46 minutes ago
      What troubling language and slurs are you referring to exactly?

      I didn't see anything "troubling" (let alone "extremely troubling") or anything that would indicate that anyone other than the implicated authors have an integrity issue.

      • ZoneZealot 20 minutes ago
        I think GP was referring to https://www.chrisbrunet.com/s/politics/archive?sort=new and https://www.theamericanconservative.com/author/christopher-b...

        I didn't immediately see a red flag that would make me discount all of their work. It's clear what the author's general opinions are. They're entitled to them of course.

      • m00x 23 minutes ago
        > created: 33 minutes ago

        A lot of these new accounts seem to be AI.

        • ZoneZealot 12 minutes ago
          I don't any signs that it's a bot, or that the comment was LLM generated. It's pretty safe to assume they made an alt to make that comment, as they didn't want to take a negative opinion towards a conservative author on their main. i.e. trying to avoid controversy.
          • bpt3 4 minutes ago
            This website is slightly to the right of reddit these days; what exactly would expressing a negative opinion about a conservative blogger do to their main account?

            My suspicion was some affiliation with a current or future implicated individual.