Croatia declared free of landmines after 31 years

(glashrvatske.hrt.hr)

244 points | by toomuchtodo 6 hours ago

13 comments

  • ulrikrasmussen 56 minutes ago
    Something I have really wondered is, why aren't there stronger incentives to build mines with a mechanism that disables them after a certain time has passed? There must be tactical and strategical reasons which are regarded more important, but surely the party using them for defending their own land ought to have an interest in not having to deal with this threat for decades after the war has ended, and an aggressor who wishes to take over an area should have the same incentives.

    Or are the reasons technical, that it is simply too difficult to develop a reliable mechanism for disabling them?

    • eitland 41 minutes ago
      There is always the option to use battery (some modern mines use this),for example RAAMS.

      The problem is of the enemy know you use only mines that work for max n hours or m days they just wait for n + 1 hours or m + 1 days.

      There is a lot more to say about this, but there are probably people way more qualified than be here to explain it.

    • ultratalk 53 minutes ago
      I'm guessing it's the latter, because you have to keep the mine-disabling mechanisms working and powered up through possible adverse weather and environmental conditions for long enough that the conflict has a fair chance of having ended.
    • TiredOfLife 54 minutes ago
      That is exactly how modern mines work
  • pjmlp 21 minutes ago
    I did some off road travelling in Croatia about 15 years ago, thanks GPS driving us into some farming roads.

    Only when I got out of it, I realised how stupid idea that was to keep following the GPS, on some country side villages the markings of the war were still visible, with abandoned buildings full of bullet holes.

    Naturally having mines still around was a possibility that I completly forgot about.

  • ra 4 hours ago
    I stayed near Dubrovnik in the summer of 2005. There was a wildfire burning on on the hills behind us.

    The fire traversed the hillside, and every hour or two a landmine would explode.

    This was ten years after the war.

    • segmondy 1 hour ago
      10 years is a long time, but 10 years after a war is not a long time. Damages to building still remains, mines and plenty of unexploded ordinances will remain, and psychological scars are still very strong.
  • locusofself 2 hours ago
    I had the good fortune of going to Croatia (as an American) for work about 10 years ago, and I milked that trip hard. What a beautiful country. Dubrovnik, Split, Hvar Island, it was pretty magical.
    • yieldcrv 2 hours ago
      Conflict zones are the most beautiful places

      They make me immediately go “oh I get it”

      • testdelacc1 1 hour ago
        What a strange and sweeping comment. There’s a conflict going on in Darfur. Does Darfur make you go “oh I get it”?
        • Tade0 33 minutes ago
          IIRC most of the fighting is happening over the southern, fertile lands.
  • hyperman1 15 minutes ago
    I live near part of the WW1 trenches. Most mines, bombs, etc. have been removed for decades now. Still, there are patches where the ground is so polluted with e.g. lead that nothing would grow. We tend to use that ground for companies and industrial things, but no worries, its completely safe for your health, citizen.
  • senko 20 minutes ago
    Just this week I talked to a person doing tree pruning/forestry, they were negotiating a job in a rural area in Croatia (wider Karlovac area).

    The particular patch of land is still suspected to contain mines, although "in theory" they were all cleared out.

    The client didn't want to pay for the minesweeeping tech team to ensure safety, the workers didn't want to wade into a forest that might still be mined.

    I suspect this is not an isolated case. It's far from over.

  • andrewflnr 2 hours ago
    I wonder how long it will take in Ukraine.

    Actually at the rate we're going, there will still be active minefield defenses for most of our lifespans.

    • stevekemp 1 hour ago
      Poland withdrew from the Ottawa Convention last month, with the aim of being able to lay anti-personnel mines along its eastern border.

      Whether it does or not is an open-question, and while I understand it of course, the idea we're increasing the use of mines is a sad day. They're so indiscriminate and will no doubt cause injuries far into the future.

      • gljiva 47 minutes ago
        Placing landmines systematically during peacetime by a stable government-ran military should at least make clearing mines easier, and minefields better marked for locals. So, it's not completely indiscriminate. If it decreases war-related life loss (both direct and indirect), it's net positive
      • postepowanieadm 1 hour ago
        No one is going to build minefields, too populated area, too many wild animals. It's mostly about automatic mining - https://www.hsw.pl/produkty/pojazd-minowania-narzutowego-bao...
        • nolist_policy 44 minutes ago
          > The BAOBAB-K Mine Laying Vehicle allows the laying of minefields of various sizes, mine densities, and self-clearance times.

          The self-clearing is interesting and I hindsight auch an obvious thing to implement.

      • dopa42365 1 hour ago
        There's no border wall, just a typical bike road next to a small fence. So no, unless Poland is planning to blow up their own civilians, they won't mine their own country lol.
        • Xylakant 43 minutes ago
          My wife’s part of the Family has a house with view of the border to Belarusia. It used to be a small fence just in front of a wood, but that’s long past. It’s truly a wall now.
    • wiseowise 49 minutes ago
      Putin’s war, bro. It’s aaall Putin laying the mines.
  • elAhmo 36 minutes ago
    Placing landmines is probably among the shittiest and most vile things someone can do.

    Knowing that ten, twenty, maybe 50 years after a conflict ends a completely innocent and unrelated person, maybe even not born at the time you did it, might die or get permanently disabled is a sick move.

    Place where I grew up is still full of landmines (Bosnia and Herzegovina), and some of the people who placed those mines are government officials today, loved by EU because of their natural resources.

    • Chyzwar 7 minutes ago
      In conflict between equals, landmines are the only practical way to restrict the mobility of the enemy. That's why 20% of Ukraine is contaminated by mines. If you were official and your choices would be losing and more people dying or placing more landmines that can be cleared over 20 years, what would you do?
    • yason 16 minutes ago
      Agreed.

      Also I think that if you live next to a warmongering country you certainly care more about making a military invasion the shittiest and the most vile thing for the aggressor that you can think of and landmines are cheap and effective there.

      I think it's a sufficient trade off that landmines self-disable themselves in, say, 5 years or so. If the war continues you'll keep planting more and when it ends you'll just wait a few years and go collect them.

  • gregjw 4 hours ago
    I wonder when/if places like vietnam will ever achieve this.

    Hell, Australia still has WW2 mines.

    • Animats 3 hours ago
      France still has WWI unexploded ordnance, and keep-out areas are still being de-mined. This has been going on for a century now. About 900 tons of explosives are removed each year. Completion in 700 years at the current rate.[1]

      [1] https://www.warhistoryonline.com/world-war-i/the-red-zone-la...

      • scns 6 minutes ago
        That is mind blowing, no pun intended.
    • strken 2 hours ago
      Does Australia have any landmines? I was under the impression that we had some areas with sea mines which had been swept but still weren't guaranteed safe, and that was it.
    • riffraff 3 hours ago
      Is that actual land mines or generic lost explosives and unexploded bombs?

      Cause the latter is pretty common in Europe too, but I'm surprised you have actually minefields which haven't been cleared up in Australia.

    • MattGaiser 3 hours ago
      I imagine a lot has to do with motivation. Canada has UXO that it doesn't clean up as land is abundant.
    • adamnemecek 2 hours ago
      This feels like a perfect use case for AI.
  • HelloUsername 58 minutes ago
    How do they know? (Serious question)
    • kqr 57 minutes ago
      Because

      > all known minefields have been cleared

      When clearing minefields, one does not miss mines, because that would be lethal! Every cube inch is carefully mapped. It is extremely hard work.

      • ithkuil 26 minutes ago
        Is it possible there are mine fields that are not known yet?
  • gethly 1 hour ago
    Meanwhile.... Poland.
    • TiredOfLife 47 minutes ago
      Poland and other countries that just abandoned the mine treaty border russia and belarus. You know, the country that launched and the country that allowed its land to launch largest war in europe since WW2.
      • klez 20 minutes ago
        Yes. But the what's the point of a convention about weapons that you only observe during peacetime and abandon as soon as war is at your gates?

        I mean, I get it, I would be scared shitless too if I had Russia at my border. I'm not saying that Poland is bad for doing this (but I'm not saying it's good either). It's more of a general observation about this kind of treaties: (relatively) easy to get into during peacetime, hard to uphold when shit hits the fan.

  • KingMob 2 hours ago
    I visited Vientiane in Laos a couple years ago. One of the more depressing places to visit there is the COPE Center.

    It's a group that provides prosthetics to people who have lost body parts due to landmines left over from the Vietnam War.

    Even decades later, there are areas in Laos that have so many unexploded bomblets, it's dangerous to do stuff there, or even build.

  • toomuchtodo 6 hours ago
    • bobmcnamara 3 hours ago
      Oof, only 90% survival rate for deminers.
      • smokeyfish 3 hours ago
        Drones can help these days
        • lukan 2 hours ago
          Can drones sniff explosives? I think that would be very expensive, they can have metal detectors, and mark suspicious sites for someone (or something, like a different digging drone) else to check.

          But rats can sniff explosives and do so succesfully.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magawa

          • ultratalk 57 minutes ago
            > He spent a number of weeks mentoring 20 newly-recruited rats

            How does that work for a rat? Sounds interesting.

            • lukan 52 minutes ago
              I don't know how it works for rats, but I assume it is like with dogs. If you have already a trained dog, you make the same exercises with the trained and the untrained dog, so the untrained dog can just watch what the trained dog does and imitate it.
          • TiredOfLife 45 minutes ago
            The flying ones can use thermal cameras. The mines and surrounding areas change temperature differently.

            Then the ground ones do the actual demining.

            • lukan 42 minutes ago
              But this only works for mines not or only lightly covered by earth I assume?

              There has been lots of rain falling from the sky, moving earth, since the mines were laid.